Subject: Rational monotheism or "Conjectural politheism". "The old scripts of Quran" and counts of initials

salaam all!

The believers in the code 19 often claim that their faith is "Rational monotheism". If you ask me,imo, though not the most accurate, the expression "Rational monotheism" is not so far from being an excellent description of Quranic doctrine/teaching, quite decent i would say. But if we take a closer look at what THEY folow and believe, it turns out that the direction which they follow is actually "Conjectural politheism"... If you asked me- that is the most precise description of that blasphemous doctrine...please read my answer to most prominent proponent of code 19 on internet today - Edip Yuksel and you`ll see that, indeed,that IS the case...

On my objection that the fact that 30 years of counting was not enough to obtain all counts of "initials" 19- divisible (but only a few of them)IS ITSELF enough proof that they are not meant to be 19 divisible, Edip wrote:

> Full moon and the blind! > Your objection and ridicule shows that you have no clue about why we > have not yet obtained the correct counts of Alifs. > Today's manuscripts have many errors regarding Alifs.>

Please forgive me for not being familiar with all the petty details of your mazhab/sect...:) I can not stay countinuously introduced with all the details of your mazhab and all of your excuses for not having basis, proof and evidence for your claims(code 19 theory), which are changing from time to time and which are continuoulsy polishing and updating... Instead of answering the essence of my questions you choose to dwell upon some unimportant and uncrutial misinformations from my side....

The truth is that no matter how we analyse counts of initials nothing significant appears, in the best case we get only a few 19 divisible hits and most of counts are not 19 divisible... Which is the reason for that, is totally irrelevant... The most simple and the most essential thing which you all avoid, and do not want to see, is that regardles of the "real" reasons for not having more than a few of 19 divisible hits, the claim that "correct counts of alifs(as well as other initials) must be 19 divisible" is a CONJECTURE par exallance... We have no knowledge about it and you only conjecture... This is in a very opposition to what Quran teach us... The whole quran speak against such behaviour and pratice - telling about God that of which we have no KNOWLEDGE...following conjectures and inventing lies in/on the God... And that is why those who believe in code 19 are actually followers of satan...

Edip, you have avoided to answer to most crutial questions that i have rasied regarding counts of intials and their connection with code 19....

WHERE AND WHEN God has informed YOU that alif counts, as well as, all other counts must be 19 divisible?

Do you have some knowledge from God about it or you just conjecture?

Did God inform you that counts must be 19 divisible?

When He has informed you about it?

All observation shows that they do not have to be 19 divisible... Initials and sets ta-ha, ta-seen -meem, ta-seen,(which btw do NOT contain alifs) are not 19 divisible no mater if you threat them as individuals or as sets or as surah sums or whatever. Initial noon is not divisible, initial saad ....

And all this is according to YOUR OWN method , YOUR favourit script, your version of alfabet, YOUR choice to include bismillah in counts of letters in surahs -inspite excluding them while counting words... And all that you have are just a few miserable 19 divisible hits ????!!!

Opinion that alif counts one day in the future must be 19 divisible is conjecture par exallance and it has no basis in counts of other initials after 30 years of counting...nothing in counts of other initials suggest that alif counts should be 19 divisible(many of initials/sets do not come as multiple of 19 no matter if they do not contains alifs)

> Today's manuscripts have many errors regarding Alifs. You can simply > verify this by comparing several versions of the Quran published in > different countries.

This is a great excuse ....you may applie it at other- non alif-initials and counts of which many are not 19 divisible...this way you can "prove" existing of the code(s) in Quran based on ANY number...For example code 8 or code 2000 etc When someone ask you for evidence, no problem, you just answer: "The code is indeed there, in Quran, I strongly believe in it- BUT Quran that we believe and read today actually is not real quran"... This is briliant.... This is a great logic.... :) No doubt, very sensible... :) . But, this way anybody can claim/have his miraculous code, based on ANY number...

> However, it is possible to get an accurate count based on a comperative > study of oldest available manuscripts,

You mean you are going to pick and choose from various scripts and put it together to repair the code ... Yes, it is possible, that way you definitelly can get all counts 19 divisible, BUT that way could be proved and embeded in Quran(by HUMANS) the code based on ANY number, not only on 19...and it would be man-made and not divine code...

The moment you start to pick and choose and correct and delete quran, that moment code becomes MAN MADE... That is why it is important to have at least one straightforward/precise/ muhkamat verse which says: "there is code 19 in Quran or "initials are connected with 19 or 19 divisibility" or etc...

> which will require expertese, > time and commitment.

You mean it requires ulama to prove the code? (And you say "simple to understand -impossible to imitate"??) God sent his "authenticating" messenger with a lack of proof (?!)and we must believe in it with a blind faith and trust to Rashad on word as you did? Undeniable mathematial,scientific proof should be trusted upon conjectures and some old versions of texts that are locked somewhere in libraries far from the people??

> Why we have not done this so far?: > > 1. Not everyone can read old manuscripts. > > 2. Obtaining them is not easy. > > 3. Some manuscripts are not complete. > > 4. Not every those who witness and appreciate 19 have the skills, means > to undertake such a task.

Yes only ulama can do that... thats why we need our ulama...

Dear Edip you sounds no better that sunnies ulama... even more ridiculous....This is a most ludicrous sect ever...

> 5. The Cult of "Submitters" have no desire for such a research, since > they blindly accept Rshad's counts to be truth.

The cult???? Ha! :)

They ARE a cult, but you ARE NOT ?!??!

Give me a break...

In fact, YOU have ALSO BLINDLY ACCEPTED Rashads counts to be truth, that is, you accepted that the counts must be 19 divisible.... and that makes you conjecturer, blind folower, liar and idolworshipper, as well as, "the submitters" are...

> 6. We are left with a minority of people. Personally, I cannot afford to > travel overseas and obtain the copy of several available manuscript, and > commit my time in terms of months. (I have only an incomplete copy of > Tashkent version) > > 7. It is obvious that the disbelievers of this great sign, who are in > millios, will not study this issue.

Yes, everybody on the earth should roll up their sleeves and start to count words and letters of Quran... that would be definitely bring them back out of the dark to the light...

> However, I do not think that you will be able to witness the miracle > even if we gather the accurate counts and they happened to be divisible > by 19. You cannot show the moon to a blind person even if it becomes > full moon.

Come on Edip, you accuse people for not being able to see evidences of code 19 which are according to you allegedly hidden and spread across/over a few oldest scripts not available to oridinary persons...and which should be gathered and counted and analysed by ulama during many years in order that oridinary people can be enlighted...BUT YOU FAIL to see the MOST obviouos evidences in Quran(clear like daylight and available to all/whole humanity)that code 19 is unquranic/satanic doctrine... This trick of yours with "the oldest scripts" is in full harmony with suffi sunnah of Rashad - hidden secrets of which there is no evidences, nor mention in Quran(except weak allusion and ambiguous phrases) and which are available only to "choosen" servants, numerical gurus and ulama- and not to oridinary average persons...

I would like to add that i am sure that somewhere someone (maybe this momment?) is very busy with his computer preparing a new Quran which should represent the oldest one(deleting correcting and finding clever excuses for it) in which all of sums will be 19 divisible, in order to spread the fitna/disorder/disunity, proclaim himself a messenger, make a schism etc... And maybe that script will be one day "discovered" "by acident" by some archeologist in some cave in mountain or below the sea or hidden in the rocks or in the grond or maybe at moon or some planet -found by astronauts:). That is the old christian/jewish ulamas` trick with bible... only with reversed logic... From time to time christian`s ulama allegedly "found" "the old(est) manuscript of Bible" or "original" in order to prove that todays Bible is not corupted and false ... But in this case we may expect that someday someone will "discover" "the real"-"original" Quran(every count of word and count letters -19 divisible)or the oldest manuscript of Quran etc to prove that Rashads teaching and the code is not satanic but divine, and that "its just that we didnt have the real copy of quran available until now"... Who knows maybe in that Quran we will have the missing verses which are most probably deleted in the past: "there is a code 19 in Quran" or "19 is a SIGN" or "19 is a miracle" or "19 is a numerical miracle" or "Rashad is a messenger....." or "19 corrects/ guards/ protects/authenticates Quran" or "o you who believe count words, letters, etc. that you may increase your faith and be certain" or "O you people, count words if you have doubt in this Quran" etc.etc.etc. According to current findings and datas which are presented as the miracle and "code 19" we have all reasons to believe many corruptions with Quran has hapened in the past...more precisely- verses that proves the code and rashads appendices are probably deleted from Quran somewhere in the past....(and thats why we have no evidences for them now...) This is "confirmed" by code 19 - by counts of intials, counts of bismillahs word, the counts of other words etcetc. The udeniable fact is that, almost, THERE IS NO SINGLE FEATURE -counts of words, letters etc. counted/calculated in Quran and presented as the miracle/ code 19 by Rashad Khalifa and his folowers in which they were consistent....and without being some word or letter excluded or included or corrected or without being exception this and that.... Count of bismilahs` words are notorius example of it... to get 19 divisible counts you must make several exceptions -exclude this and that, count that instead of this, dont count that count this, exclude this include that etc... The counts of ALL words have some excess... so it "proves" that either many verses are deleted or injected in quran and NOT ONLY 2

Since there are no single straighforward/decisive/muhkamat verse(3/7) about code 19 we can conclude that some verses are deleted from quran by sunnies and shias in the past...

A question comes to my mind:

WHAT WOULD YOU DO in the case IF: one day, in the future, people find the oldest manuscript of Quran in which all the initials are 19 divisible BUT in which Jesus is described as "son of God"? To whome will you trust? To mighty words of todays Quran or to 19?

I feel the urge to cite and paraphtrase Quran here: * What is wrong with you ? How do you judge? Do you have an authority/proof/Sultaan for your claims? Do you have a book from/in which you learn? Bring your book if you are truthfull...! Bring your evidence if you are truthfull...! (do not say: Evidence is hidden somewhere in mountain, or spread acros/over numereous non-available scripts etc nonsense) Do you know the gayb/unseen ? Is knowledge of gayb with you (so that you can copy and paste it to us)? Do you have a ledder up to the sky so that you can tap the heavenly conversations? *

All this my dear fellows believers in the code is the clear message of Quran which you have rejected!!!!

How about 17/36??

In conclusion let me tell you something with no intention to injure you but to catch your attention to something:

You people at 19 org-believeres in the code- like to characterise/describe your faith as "rational monotheism"...that is fine, but that are ONLY good but EMPTY wishes, actually, it would be more appopriate if you would call your direction "conjectural politheism", this is far more appropriate and more close to the truth.

peace, Zlatan

p.s. please do not say i will answer this in my new book....but answer now the following without avoiding a single qustion:

Did God inform you that the counts of initials must be 19 divisible?

WHERE AND WHEN God has informed you that alif counts as well as all other counts must be 19 divisible?

Do you have some knowledge from God about it, or you just conjecture?

You know that in todays widely spread Quranic scripts many of non-alif sets/initials are not 19 divisible and no mater how combined and analysed only a few of counts turn out to be 19 divisible?? If you are aware of this fact then why do you assume that alif counts and several other(non alif)counts which are not 19 divisible must be 19 divisible? Didnt you read in Quran that conjecture is of no use and of no benefit to the truth..did you read that conjecture is not the substitution for the truth.... So why conjecture saying:"i strongly believe that they must be 19 divisible", when-after 30 years of studying- they MOST OBVIOUSLY are not...? Is God your neighbor, so that you are at coffy every morning at Him and He reveals to you all of His secrets??

How do you know that the oldest available scripts will show all counts 19 divisible? What if they do not show them 19 divisible? What would you do in the case if you would not be able to make them all 19 divisible by picking and chosing from various texts? Would you take Quran and correct it with your own hand as you did it with letter N in surah 68 when the count was one short? What kind of evidence it will be when you pick and chose and delete and corect Quran to make it 19 divisible, when ANYONE can do the same with any number/code and book? p.s.2 Believers of code 19 will believe in Quran only IF Quran is CHANGED, or if somebody brings them Quran "other then this". See how they are precisely described by God -Allmighty in Quran:

10/15 When our revelations are recited to them, those who do not expect to meet us say: "Bring a Quran other than this, or change it!" Say, "I CANNOT possibly change it on my own. I simply follow what is revealed to me. I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the retribution of an awesome day."